Thanks Chenay, I have made a decision to take Banner up to a trainer and graze him there for a few months and we can work through all our problems. I don't have a round pen or the know how to use one. Your suggestions are awewsome and hopefully this trainer will be on the same wave length, I think I have lost too much confidence to go much further myself, and would hate to make things worse.I feel that unless im coming across confident i may do more damage than good, we have actually been covering him all winter and distracting him with titbits which is bad I now realise! Will put up a post in a week or so,hopefully full of progress! Thanks so much.