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Old 06-28-2009,
 
 
 
The feed bag
In The Ribbons
appyxlove is offline
 
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Default Backing in cross ties

Recently when Jolly is standing around in the cross ties and he tries to back up and try to turn around...

He's done it several times now. How can I get him to stop?
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Old 07-05-2009,
 
 
 
Member
In Training
Cuttin74 is offline
 
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What's behind him that he want to see?
If this is new for him, something has changed for him.
Bored?
How long before he does it?
 
 
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Old 09-11-2009,
 
 
 
The Everday Rider
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Thats tough, and can be very dangerous. If there is no wall behind him, he is running the risk of flipping, and that can lead to fatal injuries. You could try tieing him in his stall with a quick release knot, or maybe train hm to ground tie?
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Old 11-19-2009,
 
 
 
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it's dangerous, stop him!!
 
 
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Old 11-20-2009,
 
 
 
Senior Member
Breezer
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Default

What got into good ol' Jolly? Question, what do you mean by "standing around"?

I do not believe in cross ties - expecially if a horse is just standing there. Horses have a tendency to move and turn to see what is going on behind them. I have seen bad wrecks when they turn and get under the cross ties.

Do you have a regular hitch rail? Try that - then he can turn and look around. I personally do not tie horses at the hitch rail - just a wrap. I do that because I also have seen horses taking off with a hitch rail and I prefer a loose horse over a hurt one.

Give it a shot and good luck!

GC
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Old 12-03-2009,
 
 
 
Junior Member
Halter Broke
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Default Dangerous yes

I agree that cross ties can be dangerous and I personally would not leave a horse to its own devices in cross ties. You can secure the cross ties with twine or something that will break in an emergency, but the best idea is to teach your horse how to release to the pressure.
Horses instinctively pull away from pressure not move into it and panic when the pressure increases and thus an accident ensues. In your case the horse is concerned with something behind it. Even with a wall behind, I have witnessed horses panicking and causing injury to their owner.
So, with a halter or better a bridle with a snaffle bit, you will take the slack out of the rein/lead downward and hold steady pressure until you see the horse drop his head, even the slightest amount and immediately release the pressure. Repeat until the horse drops its head every time you apply pressure. You can also teach them to release to the side to side pressure the same way, only side to side instead of down. You can then add distractions and speed up the requests until the horse will release even under stress. During this exercise do not pop the rein or lead, just use steady pressure. When the horse fully understands how to release to pressure on its face it will be much safer to tie anywhere. Be safe and remember to have fun teaching your horse.
 
 
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Old 01-26-2010,
 
 
 
Just Jump It
Yearling
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Smile Cross Ties


Cross Ties are a good way to tie a horse if you follow some common sense safety rules. All horses should learn to tie quietly and safely.
Always use a safety halter and ties should fix to something that will break if your horse gets panicked. I use a bit of twine, or a mid sized plastic wire-tie.
Cross tie with a wall behind the horse can touch. Not too long, never should be able to touch the ground. Short enough that they can not get their head turned past their shoulders.
A comfortable natural head position. I prefer to use the upper rings on the halter to tie in a head-to-head trailer.
Horses can see what is behind them when they lift their head. If your horse is worried, set up cross ties in the stall. Always tie the ends higher than the withers.
Never leave a horse alone, never introduce things they are worried about or try to do vet procedures with a tied horse.
Teach a horse to step away from you and never crowd you with their hindquarters, or shoulders.
Never tie to an object that can be removed, mirrors, water spigots, thin tree limbs, doors
trailers that are NOT hooked up. Tied by things they can paw and hurt themselves on, trailer license plates for example. Never tie with a hay net that will hang too low when empty.
Never tie a foal, use a lead just crossed around a place. They have weak necks and can cause damage to their necks and spines.
Never tie too close to another horse. Never tie by the bit, or with a chain. If you do use a lead with a chain do not clip the chain through the halter ring then back to the ring, leaving a loop in the chain. Most are the right size to stick a foot through. This is true when leading also, they could reach down to grab a bite and step right into the loop made by the chain.
All my horses learn to tie. First in cross ties, then to a sturdy hitching post. I vacuume all my horses everyday, they all stand in cross ties.
Never lead another horse under a cross tie past another horse.
All these rules sound like a lot, but they are really just common safety habits. Good Luck
 
 
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Old 01-29-2010,
 
 
 
Professional Trainer
legacytraining is offline
 
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Default Is it Necessary?

You have already gotten some very good advice here from others, but I'll add two cents to the kitty. We do not own cross ties. I'm not saying they're abusive or anything, but they present a unique set of training issues. Most ametuer trainers train only on the left side of the horse, we find ourselves working on this often in our business. What results is a horse that responds great when pulled on to the left, but struggles with bending to the right.

Cross ties present a challenge because the horse will almost immediately give to the pressure it feels to the left. The problem here is that when it does, it is "punished" by a tug to the right by the other cross tie. Whether you meant to or not, you can wind up training your horse not to bend in either direction. Remember: every time you interact with your horse, you are training, whether you mean to or not.

I agree with Wolfgang in that your horse is much better tied to a post. It can look freely to either side without pressure and will only receive pressure in one direction if it backs up. That said, it really doesn't take a lot of work to teach your horse to ground tie. Every horse that enters training at our facility goes back home calmly ground tying, period. Anything short of that is a lack of trust or respect on the part of the horse, both of which should not exist if the trainer/owner is doing his or her job correctly.
 
 
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2010,
 
 
 
Senior Member
Breezer
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Default

I am glad you pointed out that giving to one side the horse can get "punished" by a tug from the other side in cross ties.

I think a lot of trouble comes from that - especially if the cross ties are pretty tight. I remember one incident where the horse obviously got confused by all the pulling and finally just blew up - it was nor pretty.

I persoanlly prefer the old cowboy way - either hang the led rope just over the hitching rail, or just drop it. A horse that needs to be tied solid just needs some training - at least in my opinion.

Let me throw in a little story. Some years ago chasing cattle we got caught in a real bad thunderstorm. We threw the reins over a bush or fence, climbed the fence and huddled in an old barn. When we got back, the horses were still standing there. These are well trained working ranch horses.

GC
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2010,
 
 
 
Just Jump It
Yearling
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Smile Cross Ties

The old cowboy way, at night when the horses were done for the day they were fitted with front hobbles so they could move around and graze without going too far away.
When you tie a youngster to a post the horse may panic and pull back with enough force to cause damage to the neck, soft tissue and vertebra.
Ground tieing is a great thing for a horse to learn, however, in the good old cowboy days, if the horse did spook, they may be just feet from a road. More and more barns are being surrounded by urban areas, the barn of the future is in a town or city. New York City and Washington both have one or two barns, in the city. A horse standing ground tied could spook and be in a major traffic roadway in a flash.
Cross ties do not imply that the horse will only get worked from one side. In fact it is a good place to start teaching the idea to yield their hips and shoulder from the human.
With the wall behind them they can not get enough force to pull and damage the neck. Rubber mats are the floor in all of my grooming stalls. The horses learn that I can work from both sides, they very, very quickly learn to shift over away from my body, not into it.
They cannot get enought height to flip over, the pull is even across the entire noseband, instead of just one side.
A horse in a very short period of time learns to stand tied, give away from pressure asking them to move over, allow us humans to move all around them. I always talk a lot when I am working around a horse, and I always introduce new things slowly. We use a vacuum on the horses. After you curry all the dry dirt and bring the scruff up to the top of the hair shaft the vacuum picks it all up. It also causes the hair root to pruduce more oil and you get a lovely glowing coat. Most horses get used to this in just a few minutes. In cross ties I can introduce them to the vacuum, first I just turn it on, it has a low setting. They know they can not move away from you sideways or pull back away, so they are willing to allow me to start with the end backwards so they do not feel the suction, just a rub on the shoulder and neck. Horses see very well behind them, they just need to raise their heads to see what is back there. I start on low once they are used to the noise, feel and the hose going back to the machine.
I can not think of one horse I have started that was not willing to stand happy in cross ties, and they learn the vacuum feels good.
By the way, when you trailer your horse, mostly in a head to head, they will be cross-tied, and they MUST be able to press on the back wall. It really helps them balance.
I do teach all my horses to stand ground tied. This is in the riding ring, gate closed and I often have to get off and re-set jumps or grids. I would not ground tie my horse in a situation where if spooked they could quickly get to a road, or even a drive way.
Safety first, safety halter, safety ties, panic ends on cross ties, not too long, yet long enough to feel the back wall, slow introduction to new things. A cross tie gives me a good place to work around my horse in a safe manner. I have never had one to learn to panic and run backwards, and the ones that come here for training that know that trick, very quickly learn the cross ties are a safe place for them as well.
Jay
 
 
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