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Old 09-22-2009,
 
 
 
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ridingwithsly is offline
 
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Default What do you think - round pen

I got this article in an email newsletter and it really got me thinking. What do all of you think? A lot of his points make sense.

Do you view a round pen as ideal for training? Think again!
Your techniques may need some re-tuning.


Rethinking the Round Pen

by Ryan Gingerich

The round pen revolution has had a dramatic impact on the horse industry, affecting every aspect of how people start horses and retrain problem horses. Many years ago I, too, was a part of the round pen revolution. I used the same round pen techniques promoted by many of this country’s top trainers. My effectiveness with this technique was good (or so I thought at the time), and I was getting what I believed to be the correct responses from the horse. The horse would turn when I asked, stop when I cued him to stop, and I had a fair amount of control over his feet.


But What About the Horse’s Mind?

What I failed to see was the psychological damage that I was causing the horse. It is my opinion that the round pen techniques I once taught and are still taught by others today are a major contributing factor to the serious behavioral issues I deal with on a daily basis.

My training program, Connective Horsemanship, is designed to allow you to work in any type of area — you don’t have to have a round pen. Please understand I have no problem with the round pen itself. When properly designed and used, the round pen provides a safe and efficient means of working with horses. In fact, I often use the round pen to rehabilitate horses with behavioral issues. It saves me time and effort by keeping them in a more confined area. But my techniques have dramatically changed since I’ve researched how horses learn, what creates behavioral issues, and how I can develop the horse without traumatizing his mind.

I also understand that many horse owners have spent thousands of dollars on round pens, and I’m not saying to get rid of them or not to use them. I am simply saying let’s look at how we can use them more effectively with an awareness of how to maintain the horse’s psychological well-being.

Acknowledging the Horse’s Intelligence

Let’s talk about current round pen techniques and how they relate to the way horses learn. Trainers who teach that round pen techniques control the horse’s feet rationalize this theory by saying that because the horse moves his feet according to what the trainer wants, the horse is now under control.

I strongly disagree.

My question to these trainers is: If the round pen wasn’t there, would the horse still respond the same way? The answer is always ‘no.’ The physical round pen, therefore, becomes a “must” for the desired response by keeping the horse in a confined area. It then follows that the round pen gives the handler a false sense of security and success. Through negative reinforcement, horses learn that they can stop running (which is a hyper-reactive response) if they follow the handler’s movements. Worse yet, I’ve seen trainers exhaust the horse in a round pen until the horse, dripping with sweat with sides heaving, literally succumbs from exhaustion.

I want you to look at this from a behavioral point of view. Since every action that is repeated is learned, what are we teaching the horse?

If the horse spends five minutes running away from us, and five seconds responding to us, which of these activities has the horse practiced more? Right — to run away! Current round pen techniques teach the horse to associate the human with the flight response. Flight is the horse’s first choice for escaping potential or real danger. The flight response is the horse’s basic instinctive response to danger. Is this the response we want from our horses? For him to think that we represent danger? Of course not!

The Round Pen as a Source of Behavioral Issues


I have received e-mails from thousands of horse owners since my TV show, ‘The Behaviorist,’ aired on RFD-TV January 1st 2008. These people are all asking me to help with their behaviorally-challenged horses. Almost without fail, these horses have been exposed to many of the round pen techniques we’ve discussed here.

So what does that tell us?

We must rethink how we use the round pen!

How Horses Learn

Taking it a step at a time, let’s first look at how horses learn. That’s fairly simple; they learn through negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcements are not bad reinforcements — they are actually just the subtraction of pressure.

When we use pressure to train a horse, the horse learns to get relief from pressure by giving a correct response. This simple relief-from-pressure response begins the development of a cue-based language with the horse. Cues are the language that bridge the gap between human and horse languages. Horses learn by being “told” (the cue) to perform a certain task over and over.

Horses also learn through the flight response; this is simply the mechanism they use to survive in a world of predators and other natural threats. In simple terms, they run away when confused or threatened.

So what’s the basic nature of the horse? This animal’s basic nature is to be vigilant (since it’s a prey animal), but relaxed when not threatened or confused.

Now that we’ve defined in simple terms how horses learn, the flight response and the basic nature of the horse, let’s go to the round pen.

Creating a Common Language

In the round pen we’ll begin the process of teaching our horses a language they can understand and correctly respond to, while avoiding causing a fear or flight response with the techniques we use. This is really an important statement — please read this first sentence a few times! Language = correct response without fear!

I truly believe that if you will think through the process you’ve been using in the round pen, these unwanted responses can be eliminated. Not only must you eliminate the unwanted responses, you must find new techniques which teach the horse a simple, consistent language that gets the right response without creating negative behavioral patterns. In this simple, consistent language, “A is always A” and “B is always B.” I teach one cue for one response.

Remember to keep in mind it’s not five minutes of mindless running to get five seconds of response. This is the “new” round pen method of training — not the old one you’ve used in the past.

How Much Repetition is Too Much?


As you teach this new language, your horse will be conditioned to respond correctly. Repeat those correct responses in sets of five to seven — not 10, 20, 30 or even more as I’ve seen so many trainers do. In fact, what happens to the horse’s brain with all those numerous repetitions is that the brain gets “flooded” and literally shuts down any possibility of learning. That’s certainly not the outcome we’re after.

If at any time the horse gives you an incorrect response without reaching the goal of at least five correct responses, go back to zero and start again. (Take a deep breath, relax, be patient and calm — anger or trying to speed up the process will always lead to disaster.)

Horses are intelligent, but they lack the ability to reason. So simplifying the language relaxes them and they begin to learn. All of this can be taught in the round pen which can provide you with a secure and controlled work area. Make sure you monitor yourself, and don’t fall back into old bad habits. By creating this two-way language and response pattern in your horse in a positive way, you’ll avoid all those behavioral problems that can result from improper round pen training.

I hope you will take to heart and mind what I have written here and begin using your round pens for the good they can provide for you and your horse. And as always, the Connective Horsemanship program and DVDs will supply you with the answers you’re seeking to develop your skills to a higher level.
 
 
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Old 09-22-2009,
 
 
 
Senior Member
Breezer
wolfgang_gc is offline
 
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Well you were asking and here is my answer - a whole bunch of balony!

First of all, the running of horses in a round pen to have them submit is kind of outlawed for years - poor Ryan is a day late and a dollar short.

"Horses learn through negative reinforcement". This is a big pile of male bovine manure. I just wish that these guys who have no idea about behavioral management - that is a science - would keep their mouth shut and not confuse people who are really looking to improve their training.

How do I dare to challenge Ryan Gingrich? Well there is a very simple reason. I have a Maters' Degree in psychology / behavioral science. In the corporate world people paid me a 1000 bucks a day to solve behavioral problems. Just plain and simple - I know what the heck I am talking about.

I know this is kind of rough. But I do not remember when I did read so much hot air and crap the last time.

I got a post on here that will lead you to some articles I got out there and - sorry admin - also can lead you to my website about training.

Sorry, you asked. Guess you guys know by now that I am pretty straight forward.
 
 
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Old 09-23-2009,
 
 
 
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Breezer
wolfgang_gc is offline
 
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Let me ad something to my previous post.

If you pick up a rock, hold it with two fingers and let go of it - the rock will fall down straight. The rock will not disappear in the sky like a rocket, hover sideways like a flying saucer or fall at any other angle but zero.

Horses, dogs, dolphins (in a more complicated way we humans) learn by being "rewarded" for desired behavior or performance and / or being "punished" for undesired behavior or performance. If someone claims something different, he/she might as well claim that the rock you let go of, will disappear in the sky.

Well, you can claim it all day long - it just will not happen. Have a nice day.
 
 
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Old 09-25-2009,
 
 
 
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Wow, not sure what he's selling here. Sounds like he has himself convinced.
Horses can reason, proven fact. Do you have a horse that can open gates? Mine does. Thats takes some reasoning. I use the round to start babies, it keeps them foscused on me. I do not run one until exhaustion, I want my horse alert and thinking. This guy I'm sure has special lead ropes or ? some other sales he's pitching. Horses are curious animals, why do you think they follow you when you turn your back. It's not magic, they're just curious. We use that to help train.
 
 
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Old 09-25-2009,
 
 
 
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Breezer
wolfgang_gc is offline
 
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You are missing the point cutting, I am not selling anything. If you want special lead ropes go to Ryan's site. I am just trying to get to the real works of training - take it or leave it.
 
 
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2009,
 
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgang_gc View Post
You are missing the point cutting, I am not selling anything. If you want special lead ropes go to Ryan's site. I am just trying to get to the real works of training - take it or leave it.
I was talking about the article below by Ryan.
 
 
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Old 09-26-2009,
 
 
 
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Breezer
wolfgang_gc is offline
 
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Sorry for the misinterpretation - then I sure agree.

Have a good one!
 
 
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Old 12-03-2009,
 
 
 
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Halter Broke
LazyJD is offline
 
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Default Round and round

A round pen is no different than a bridle, rope, martingale, saddle......it is a tool that when used by a trained individual is a powerful tool, but when abused can be counterproductive to say the least.

I love mine for starting young and old alike and it is my first classroom with them. I use it to put a solid foundation of communication and understanding on all my horses. And as far as learning, they are like kindergarten kids in the beginning that need both positive reinforcement and negative consequences'.

But opinions are like elbows, everyones got a couple. Let the horse tell you what works.
 
 
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2010,
 
 
 
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evenstar7139 is offline
 
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That article is kind of insulting. It's insinuating 99% of people that use round pens either have no idea what a calm, happy horse looks like or don't care.

When one thinks the whole world is stupid and only they are smart...chances are it's the other way around o.0
 
 
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