I am on another thread and when someone told me they were going to start their horse under saddle......I made the assumption that they were going to saddle, bridle and put a rider on and do at least walk, trot........I questioned them as this is a 2 year old that they said still looked like a baby.........they said starting under saddle does not mean a rider but just the saddle and that being backed means a saddle and rider.......To me, "backed" is the beginning of "starting under saddle"

What is everyone else's opinion?

Personally, my definition of starting under saddle is when you actually saddle, bridle, and begin actually riding a horse, backing is the same thing to me, just a different word. Getting them used to a saddle and bridle while on the ground is all included in ground work. Of course you don't start it until they get older, its not in my training regiment for weanlings for example, but a coming 2 year old will start wearing a saddle during training sessions. I also let them wear the bit while lunging etc... before I ever start driving them.

Not in SA the show horse council does not allow any competition at all under saddle even a show jumping round.

I never start training a horse until it is at least 2 1/2 years of age. Preferably 3 years.
They can't be worked more than an hour once broken at that age. Until they are that age I leave them in the paddock to learn manners from the other horses and just be a horse.
Horses in Austalia have to be a least 4 years of age before they can compete.
The oldest horse I ever trained for saddle was 13 years of age. Until I caught her she had been running wild with the brumbies. She turned out really well

Flat Spin: It would be awsome if the 4 y/o rule was established state side. Here, there are special shows for 2 and 3 y/o only. meaning that if you are goin to show a 2 yo colt in the summer or fall there is a a good possibility he will have to be worked a heck of alot more than they can handle in the spring in order to be ready. And lets not even get started on thoroughbred racing...

Seems to me, they have a lot more sense "down under". The only comparible rule I know here is in Combined Drving - minimum of 4 years.

In the Vaquero Style world they did not start horses till 4 or 5. Looking at another 4 to 5 years to have a finished Bridle Horse means that a horse was at least 8, better 10 years before it was considered a finished horse.

What drives the deal is money. The younger you can get them into shows the earlier you can claim "success" - which means more money for the stud or mare. The horse is just a vehicle to make money.

GC

So i just got my first horse, she has been really sweet and gentle but that changes when i saddle her. So she was sold to us broke (no giving her back he moved from the state) Since i thought she was broke i saddled her (western and snaffle bit) with a proper fitting saddle and i put on her bridle. She stood still wall i mounted and all, but i asked her to forward she stood there i huged her sides with my legs after kissing about a million times cause the owner said thats what gets her to go. I try turning she turned, i back her up and she back up she goes every where but straight a trainer said its because when asking to turn or back up your putting pressure on the bit. But when you forward your just kicking and kissing and making noise. He has never had a horse like this so he said he could not help 4 other trainers said the same thing. i did not get mad at her but instead got off untacked and fed her. please help!

what the heck kind of trainers did you go to that they wouldnt even try?!? Not saying they arn't to be commended for knowing when they are out of their elements but really? Trainers that wouldn't try to help? Interesting...

Questions:
1. do you have a round pen or small ring?
2. Did you/ have you done any ground work with her?
3. if so, what was her reaction?

Just a shot in the dark but it sounds like your mare was ridden hard too early and decided she wasnt having anymore. Now, she refuses to walk outta habbit. Reguardless of why or how she got this way, probably the best solution is to re-start her from the ground up. In this type of situtation it seems to be much more productive to start over than to bully her throught this one issue. If shes having a problem here, more than likely there are others.

This can be a little hard to do correctly, so you may need to get someone to help walk you through it the first couple of times.
Failure to go forward is however one of the easier problems to fix.

Start untacked, teach her to lunge, you can start with just a halter-no round pen needed.
Start slowly just @ walk until, you standing still in the middle, can get a crisp walk off-use whip a good crack if needed- and whoa.
Than add trot, no need to canter @ this point.
Next do exactly the same with tack.
Remove tack and add a second line- it will run from halter/bit- along shoulder/barrel/hip and come around butt just above hocks.
Start by just going in the same size circle, re-establish your whoa and get a change of direction, gradually go behind horse so that both you and the horse are in a straight line.
Your lines should go evenly down both sides and end dirctly behind her where you are standing.
This is called long lining.
If you stay directly behind her, use your lines against her sides-take them out away from her-move your arm away from you- and bring it back against her side will give a similiar feeling to that of your leg, meaning forward.
Do continue to use your voice aids as well.
Add tack, do as above.
With practice you can long line @ walk/trot and canter.

Then to address a completely different point.
Your legs should just hang natural, jello jiggler like.
Try turning your toe straight out, pretend that you have a spur on, and tap her with that back part of your boot. Then toe forward and soft relaxed leg.
Think of someone poking you repeatedly, if they poke and leave the pressure you would ignore it, but if they continue to poke over and over, you will move away.
Same goes for the horse.
A tight hugging leg, may be the wrong approach.
Good Luck

I agree I wish all futurites were for 4y.o and up. Your so right, it's all about the money.

Backing, I guess I never thought about it. When someone says they backed up a horse, I would assume rider. If my horse now backs, I would be thinking ground work. (???)

I do a lot of ground work before I ever get on. They can do pretty much anything, all I am lacking is under saddle. (meaning rider)