Hi,

I am riding a horse that I am leasing, after quite some time out of the saddle.
The trouble is, every time I ask her go from walk to trot or trot to canter, she flattens her ears, throws her head, and has several times started bucking.
I am trying to get her collected at a sitting trot, which we are having alot of trouble doing.
I am keeping my hands low and quiet, while working on bending her around my leg as we do circles, but as soon as I take any tension off the reigns, she misbehaves and tries to buck or break into a canter. She doesn't want to go from walk to sitting trot. She jumps right into an fast trot with her head up. My freind that I am leasing her with is having the same problem, so we are either both doing the same thing wrong, or it is bad behavior on her part (or pain, or out of balance, or....help!) Either way, it is making riding her a bit frustrating. According to her owner, the previous owners used a running martingale on her for the head throwing. Well it certainly didn't cure her! However, since I am only leasing her for the summer, I am wondering if should do the same, instead of investing alot of time in training. On the other hand, I'd like an opportunity to improve my horsemanship. P.S, this horse has trained in dressage and hunter jumper, so what gives!
Rose, the Arab/thouroughbred that I had in my youth was VERY unruly, so I do have experience in the unruly dept, however it's been a while, and I never did solve all of
our issues. So here's a chance to start anew with a new perspective, I hope!
Thanks for any and all advice!

I for one believe it is always rider error.
Can be as simple as, leg is swinging, bouncing, leaning, jerking, or fear, anxity,etc...

How does this horse behave, lunging, lunging fully tacked, and ridden by a very good rider.
You will see where the problem lies.


What[how do you ask] are your aids for the gait change.

If you are doing this by just holding tension against the reins, unfortunately that is incorrect and all that will do is create tension & she will look for any escape route.
It is best to have a horse going forward-there is a HUGE difference between forward & faaster.

Yes, sounds like there is exactly that rider=tension/horse=trying to escape.


Yes to all of the above.
Have you seen this mare go from walk to collected work well.
Assuming English, that degree of training normally comes later on and is typical of Dressage horses, not Hunters/Pleasure or trail.


Don't worry she is probably just as frustrated as you are.

Gadgets-Sorry but they don't train horses, just cover up short cuts in training.


Realistically do you have the skills to train her, or is that money you need to invest for a trainer.

Throughout your lifetime, every horse you deal w/ will teach you something. They are very generous that way.

Again, sorry no.
To be correctly trained in Dressage she may have done Jumpers, but there is nothing about Hunters that rides anything like the other two.
I just started @ the top and worked down, so some of my questions are answered here.
Collected trot in Dressage doesn't start until second level.
Which is on the higher end of the training scale.
Running Martingale-attaches to reins-could only be used for Jumpers, considered illegal equipment in the other disciplines.
Standing martingale-attaches to noseband only legal for Hunters in the Jumping classes.

Hi,

You know, perhaps I'm reading into your tone, but I thought that response was not very freindly, and alot more critical than constructive or instructive. I haven't ridden in a while, but I did alot of training with a good trainer in my youth. I was hoping for some freindly reminders, and instead I felt like you were wagging your finger at me.

I have no idea how she is with "lunged, fully tacked with a really good rider" I have watched her ridden in our small island community arena by her owner, and by the other woman I am leasing her with. All are good riders. The horse does this behavior with all of us, but less so with her owner. I for that matter, am a damn good rider. A little out of practice perhaps. In fact, her owner said that she could not tell at all that I'd been out of the saddle for so long. My legs do not "swing" and even though I haven't ridden in a while, I barely "bounce" because I did alot of training in my youth on the "classical seat" with no stirrups, or no saddle and no reigns on a longe line with my excellent trainer. Her owner said my leg line "looked excellent." Now that I'm done defending myself--

First of all, the girl who owns this horse has (according to her) trained her and showed her some in first and second level dressage. She also told me that her previous owners did hunter jumper with her. As far as I know, and jeez, I guess I'm not as informed as you on this subject, but I thought horses could do both--i.e: three day eventing.
I in fact did hunter jumper with my horse and I also did alot of 1 st level dressage ground work training with her.

Lastly, when I ask this horse to move into a trot, I squeeze my legs gently and give with the reigns. She flattens her ears, and becomes unruly as soon as I lessen the contact on the reigns, not the opposite, as you suggested.
According to her owner, she keeps alot of contact on the reigns with this horse.
This is not how I would prefer to do it. However at a walk, I do not have much contact on the reigns, I ask with a gentle leg aid for her to move forward, and the only reason I take up the reigns at that point is because the horse is trying to throw me!
And no, I do not just use contact on the reigns to get her to collect. I use my seat and the outside reign-- course as much as possible, because I haven't ridden in a while. But since she also does this behavior with two other people, we must all be doing the same thing wrong.

Point of fact, I do not feel tense when I am riding, nor do I feel anxious. I feel happy and joyful, because at one time in my life it's all I ever wanted to do!

When I said I kept my hands "low and quiet," this was not to suggest that I was putting alot of pressure on her mouth, in fact quite the opposite. The other rider watched me and actually thought that I had nowhere near enough contact on the reigns and had me shorten up, which Summer (the horse) responded to, but as you say, is not correct. However, when I release that tension, she throws her head and tries to buck. Oh woops, guess I wasn't done being defensive.

So maybe this is learned behavior from bad training in the past. I am not suggesting that I am not doing anything "wrong" but I found your advice more critical than constructive, and really quite pedantic.

Also, I know that a martingale is an "aid" and a temporary fix, but she is not my horse and I only have her for the summer. I get that your into "Natural Horsemanship" but why the rightousness???
If there is any one else out there with more constructive advice, even if it has to do with my riding style, please, I'd like to hear from you because I am really dissapointed. With this last response.

When you say that it's always the riders fault, you are suggesting that the relationship is a one way street. Is it always your partners fault when you get into a fight? That's ridiculous. Horses can come to you with bad habits and behavior problems. I am not saying that that is the case here, but to suggest that it could only possibly be something that I am doing is pretty rightous. Relationships are a two way street. I have ridden some very well trained horses who responded beautifully and never threw there heads or tried to throw me, all the way to horses who have tried to run for the nearest tree branch to clothsline me off there backs. By your logic, if it was always my bad riding skills, all the horses should have all misbehaved.
As for the martingale, I am well aware of the rules for the various disciplines. Thanks. I am not showing her, I am having fun doing some flatwork, and hopefully I will take her over some fences. Then I'm going to do some trail riding with her. I'd like it if I could do these things with her with out her either threatening the integrity of my nose, or trying to ditch me.

Thanks again.

Sorry, you thought there was "tone" none intended.
I'll leave that alone for others to address.

Funny that you read that into my post-I'm about the farthest thing from NH.

For your later post-and admitting up front may have "tone"

When it comes to riding and horsemanship…

Undoubtedly, you have heard the old saying that "Practice Makes Perfect".

Well, no it doesn't. Only "perfect" practice makes perfect.

EVERYBODY MAKES THE SAME MISTAKES.

It doesn’t matter what discipline.

It doesn’t matter if they’re a rank beginner or been riding a long time.

I guarantee they share MANY of the same problems and faults.

Most people try to learn how to improve their HORSE.

But in reality, the thing that usually needs improvement is the RIDER.

People think the key is getting the horse trained.

It never dawns on them that the horse will NEVER PERFORM correctly unless he is RIDDEN correctly.

So consequently, these folks work like crazy trying a bunch of different horse training methods when really, their focus should be on improving their own riding ability.

And you know what, the worst offenders are usually the people who have…

BEEN RIDING FOR 5 YEARS or more.

Now, I’m going to share with you a truth that’s going to really TEE-OFF some readers.

Just keep in mind, my intention here is NOT to be mean or hurtful.

My intention is to open people’s eyes so they can discover the REAL WAY to get the results they’re after.

Okay, here it is…


“The majority of people who have been riding for 5 years…

really only have ONE YEAR of experience…

REPEATED 5 times”.

It’s been my observation, in most cases, there isn’t much difference between somebody who’s been riding for only a year and somebody who’s been riding 5 years.

Yes, the person with 5 years of experience will have done more with horses and be more comfortable dealing with them.

And they’ll usually be able to read a horse better too.

But generally, that person’s “SKILL LEVEL in the SADDLE” will not be much different than what it was after his first year of experience.

After the first year, he’ll be in the HABIT of riding a particular way and he’ll continue to ride that way year after year.

Right or wrong, he’ll use his hands, legs and body the same way no matter what the situation and no matter what horse he rides.

He does this without even being aware of it.

As a consequence, his horse never advances the way they could.By asking in a manner the horse doesn't understand, there will be resistance.

When that occurs it is the RIDERS responsibility to ask in a way the horse does understand.


Insanity is when you do things the same way over and over again, yet expect different results.

Most of us are so guilty of this it isn’t funny.

There are many, many people who have been riding their entire lives who can’t get their horse to pick up the correct lead or do a simple turn on the hindquarters.

Because of this, riders constantly ask what CUE they need to use to get a horse to do a certain thing.

And there in lies a not-so-obvious problem.

The word “Cue” is a very misleading term.

It doesn’t mean what most people think it does.

For example…

When we talk of “CUEING” a horse to pick up the left lead, most folks think of it as simply using their leg to push a “BUTTON” that automatically makes the horse take the lead.

And on a highly trained horse, ridden by a good rider, it appears this is the case.

However, on the average “lesser trained” horse, it’s not that way at all.

And because the rider thinks of the “cue” as a “button”, he has no idea why that cue is used in the first place.

Let me explain…

Here’s what the word “Cue” really means.

I’ll use the example of cueing for the left lead .

To ask your horse to pick up the left lead you…

1. Make contact with the horse’s mouth and collect him a little.

2. Use the left rein to move his shoulders slightly to the right.

3. At the same time, use your right leg to move the hindquarters to the left.

4. While you have the horse’s body in this position, squeeze with both legs (or kiss) to ask for the lope.

So in this situation, the “Cue” consisted of performing 4 distinct steps in the correct sequence.

It’s not anything like pushing a button.

It’s more like positioning a horse’s body to get the desired result.

There is nothing mysterious about this but it does require some knowledge of horsemanship.

It goes back to learning to ride correctly.

If a person will RIDE CORRECTLY, the horse will practically TRAIN HIMSELF.

This isn’t a line of B.S. I just made up… it’s the absolute truth.

Learn to ride right… learn to use your hands, legs and body correctly… and your horse will get so much better you’ll wonder what happened.

Gforce: let me see if i can moderate here. Although they dont always come off that way, people on this sight are normally very helpful and only want to offer helpful advice. That being said; LTch is known for giving her honest opinion in all situtations, which is: ridder error.

Now, from my expierence, most issues are a mix of ridder error, misscommunication from a lack of understanding and equine behavioral issues that are invariably the result of the last two.

That most certaintly dosnt mean that you are causing your horse to toss her head and buck, just that somewhere in the past, ridder error and misscommunication have taught her that is the way to behave in certain situtations.

Extracting from your previous posts, i would say that your mare suffers from a behavioral issue that i have seen quite alot of in Dressage and Jumper horses. I call it "split personality" but basically your mare dosn't know how to act on a long rein b/c 1.she has either never been taught or 2. has forgotten how to behave when someone has little or no contact on her mouth.

But, not more important than the cause but perhaps more important right now to you, is the fix. If you have a round pen and you are indeed a good rider, as you say that you are, stick her in the round pen and starting at a walk, ride on the buckle. (that is, hold the very end of your reins so that you have no contact with her mouth. Ask her to trot. If she acts a fool, take your free hand and one rein stop her to the outside. Return to walk, repeat. Soon she will understand that a loose rein dosnt mean she is free to do what she wants. At this point, repeat at a canter. Dont worry about collection or even direction at this point. After all, you can only concentrate on one thing at a time with horses.

Good luck, keep us informed...

Gforce,

I am sorry to hear you are having these troubles! Please don't take Ltc's tone personally, this is how we all generally hear it from Ltc, it's nothing especially directed at you. She always gives her honest opinion. I sense this attitude with alot from the competitive English realm. No, it doesn't seem as friendly as if Clinton Anderson were talking to you... but I think if you grow up in this sort of atmosphere in your horse life, you're going to walk and talk it

The biggest difference in these two disciplines is, the conformation - a hunter is long and low, dressage -high headset, deep, springy full action. Almost opposites. I don't know many horses that can go very far in both disciplines and excel. And to me would be confusing as well as complicating to teach your horse to move in a long sweeping motion with his head low, and swap to a high arched headset and springy/collected/working/extended etc.

This really sounds like either 1 she has picked up this habit and attitude as a result of a poor or beginning rider who didn't respond to this behavior,
2 a pain issue (poor fitting saddle, bit, teeth issues, bridle issues)
3 She was never correctly trained under saddle
4 Current poor rider issues

In which case I would certainly rule out any pain issues first.

If you're sure it's not any riding issues (and I couldn't say yea or nay on this as I can't see you! You could have a professional out to watch you ride is the only option I can think of for you other than posting a video for opinions) I would get some trainer opinions and possibly have a trainer work with her/you. She really sounds to me like she is just simply disrespectful and unwilling to work under saddle (if this is not a pain or ride problem) and I'm sorry to differ with Ltc4h but riding 'perfectly' is not going to ever get rid of a horse's disrespectful or unwilling attitude! There are plenty of pros who will agree with this!

Quality riding techniques are always an aid to any problem under saddle, but it can only take you so far.
-and it is NEVER going to teach a horse to no longer buck, crow hop, or pin it's ears every time you ask it to work. This is disrespect, unwilling, and a general, "I don't want to do this and you can't make me" attitude.
Perfect riding skills are not going to teach your horse to perform a passage or a flying lead change. The horse has to be taught, and this isn't just by sitting up straight.

As for Natural Horsemanship, you'll generally very rarely find an english rider, partiularly one who is competitive at all, to be very knowledgable of Natural horsemanship. Which is sad. The English atmosphere is more into the riding, and less into the natural training of anything and everything a horse can be trained to do, using it's own equine language.
Google a search of Natural Horsemanship trainers and tell me how many in the English industry you find. None, except maybe Lyhn Palm, who is also a devoted western horsewoman. But you will find plenty of cowboy hats!
I dunno if most english horsemen/women are ignorant of the possibilities of Natural training, or if they underestimate the potential. But heck, while some people call running martingales a gadget/gimmick, other horsemen would call a bit a gadget as well. Why can't a horse be trained under a simple rope halter? Ah, but they can! In fact Pat Parelli is widely known for trying to keep as much equipment to a minimum as possible, and relying on using equine language in every part of the horse's training life. He applies the simple ideas to every part of groundwork, ground play, and riding and the results are amazing! Horse's are happy (naturally, they understand the language being spoken to them...it's called horse! Hehe )
Well, good luck with your mare, sorry I didn't quite put two cents in. More like just a penny... maybe I will think of more later ...

How are you coming along Gforce? *anticipating look*

sounds good to me. It is really helped me out. Thanks